 lyns
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Posted: 7 August 2014, 10:20 AM
In the " grades" discussion DMJunior said:
"Just a couple of things:
- Grades do not need reviewing, the best orienteer will largely come out on top no matter what. Having a "elite" grade will just put off the not so goods from coming and racing. We need to get back to what schools orienteering is all about - getting the orienteering brand out there and making sure as many competitors as possible enjoy themselves and want to come back again. Its like a pyramid, for NZ orienteers to reach a higher pinnacle they need a wider base - aka schools orienteering.More competition breeds better performances anyway.
- Worlds schools is a great experience for school aged orienteers. Speaking from EXPERIENCE of world schools (something ONZ does not have and from my understanding haven't really tried to get) having a selected NZ team would not work, be too costly and un needed. A lot of world schools (for all countries) is based around building friendships, experiences and the like, not so centered around the results (although these do matter).Selecting a NZ team would be stupid - 1 it is harder to co-ordinate, 2 it is costly (paying manager/coach) and 3 it is not needed. Even Sweden do not select a team - they send one school in the select grade and another in the school grade.
When I went in 2009 we managed to fundraise a large amount of the trip because local charities give money to local schools teams not to mention other activities like sausage sizzles, school socials and trail bike ride. All of these are highly unlikely to happen for a select team, ramping up the cost for these "lucky" chosen few.
Why dont we, if two schools want to go, send both! one in one grade and one in the other. At the end of the day, these really good guys are going to get there chance to run for NZ at Aus Schools Challenge level and most likely JWOC as well (all huge expenses). Why not expose the next tier to this high level competition and inspire future performances.
Once again (much like the woc long debacle and the seemingly under prepared world cup in tasmania) decisions are being made by people who are out of touch with the real heart of the sport and somewhat fail to even gauge opinion and gain knowledge from those who are in the know.
Anyways, all my opinion. Have a great day people "
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lyns
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Posted: 7 August 2014, 10:23 AM
That's an interesting perspective on World Schools DMJunior. But where does it leave juniors who would love to have the experience (maybe are not quite good enough for selection for Aus Schools Champs) but don't have enough orienteers at their school of their level and gender to make up a team of 5?
With a selected team they have a chance, with just picking a second school in each grade they don't.
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Martin
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Posted: 7 August 2014, 11:36 AM
There's nothing to stop juniors who want international experience heading over to compete at the Australian champs carnival.
Many juniors have used this as a stepping stone to gaining experience and it has paid off for them with selection in the schools team in following years. It's much cheaper than heading across to Europe for one competition.
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lyns
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Posted: 7 August 2014, 12:14 PM
Fair enough.
But my point was just that it would be better to spread it around a bit, rather than confining it to schools with large teams available, IF there was a real intention to send more to World Schools.
Which there may not in fact be, judging by comments on the other thread.
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Jane H
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Posted: 7 August 2014, 1:39 PM
ONZ not thinking they'll send a selected team to school ... are they really that out of tune with their members?
Every parent I spoke to about the possiblity at NZSSC said they would consider sending their kid if selected.
It doesn't matter really ... now the seed has been sown those parents will find other alternatives if they wish to.
Did anyone else hear the interview of Winston Reid (of Westham Football) on the Sunday program? He said if anyone wants to be a good at their sport, like he has become, they need to get out of NZ as early as possible. (His family left NZ when he was 9).
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Andel
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Posted: 7 August 2014, 2:03 PM
Jane I agree we must get our top orienteers overseas for development and experience. (I did hear Winston Reid's interview)
lyns we have some very good orienteers that go to schools that do not have sufficient students orienteering to qualify for the worlds. This is where sending selected teams to school worlds gives these kids a chance to gain that experience.
Martin, you mention about these kids should just head over to Australia, but in reality the top orienteers in the world are in Europe and that is where the best experience is to be gained.
Re the cost,I am aware of a group of parents who will work together to get their kids over to Turkey if they are given the opportunity to go.
ONZ your members do want selected teams to go to Turkey. It costs you nothing, your only challenge is selecting the team to go. Give these kids the opportunity band experience that they want and need.
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Jane H
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Posted: 8 August 2014, 4:37 AM
In another thread Simon said the ONZ is not considering
"sending a team to Europe where we inevitably would need to cover Manager / Coach costs that we cannot afford".
This revelation would have sent shock-waves through some families. There is a gap between the member's anticipation and ONZ stance here. Would the cost of a team manager be inevitable? (I think that is wrongly assumed by ONZ). If ONZ does not know there are parents willing to take their children (and a bunch of their mates) to World Schools without any compensation from ONZ then there is a lack of communication in the ranks. I knew 3 weeks ago.
Would it be inevitable in the future? I doubt it. I have faith that there is one parent per 2nd year that would be willing to volunteer such a service in our midst.
It should be taken on a team-by-team basis though. The senior boys team have prematurely packed their bags. I hope someone helps them out and successfully can get some dialogue opened with ONZ before the end of the month.
Simon, the idea parents wouldn't encourage their kids to go to Oceania before they head off to the World's does not historically stand up. The Andersons took a van-load of the team down to Oceania in South Island in preparation that year and our Callum has been to both Oceania and World events since then, again for preparation. And the M16s don't usually make the ANZ School Challenge team, they get a gap year in other school rep teams.
I hope I don't have to start a 2-year campaign to have the new World School's Policy altered to include the clause " teams may be selected if it is proven they can fund themselves"... but if you make me, I'm up for the challenge.
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lyns
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Posted: 8 August 2014, 5:11 AM
Jane H - I agree with the above although I haven't been party to the discussions I'm sure the passion is there and the expectations have been raised.
In another thread though you said: " I would treat the seniors and juniors differently in this case. I would like a senior team to definitely go, so they keep selecting until 5 accept. But with juniors if all the top 5 juniors don't want to go, don't send a team. Reason it could occur -cost mainly."
Here I disagree in part. I don't think that the selectors should go "down the list" indefinitely to form a team, but also no reason to stop at "Top 5" assuming even that there is such a bright line division. Rather I should think it would be possible to draw up a list of juniors in order of preference who they think would be up to the experience (might be 5, 7 or 10, I don't know, that's why we have selectors right?) and work down that list. If they can't get 5 from such a list, OK, but there's no reaon that eg 1,2,3,4 and 6 should all miss out becuase (say) number 5 is unavailable for whatever reason - could be cost, school commitments or whatever.
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Andel
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Posted: 8 August 2014, 1:09 PM
Jane I had not seen Simon's thread where he said the ONZ is not considering
"sending a team to Europe where we inevitably would need to cover Manager / Coach costs that we cannot afford".
Reading the selection notice it clearly states that "Orienteering NZ expect Representative Schools and Selected Team athletes to self-fund this event" based on that ONZ would not be expected to pay the coach and managers costs.
What Simon does not realise is that we have people available to step up to coach and manager selected teams and those who want to go understand that they will be covering those costs. All ONZ has to do is select the teams, ONZ will not be expected to cover any costs.
Simon I urge ONZ to select the selected teams for the school worlds.
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Jane H
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Posted: 9 August 2014, 2:08 AM
Given that appeals are going on for other selections now (and the Ebola scare) I suspect any re-action by ONZ to this discussion may be remote but I will [stubbornly] carry on with the chat just to support 5 or 10 keen young orienteers who may wish to go to Turkey next year.
I applaud ONZ's desire to promote more participation of more young NZer's in each ANZ-Challenge in the future. I agree with this policy and plan to be a helpful assistant in achieving this goal as much as I possibly can.
I have been thinking, then ....
The World Schools Selection policy could have the following clause added
"To be selected into the senior team members must have also achieved the following:
1. Been a podium-finisher in a National event.
2. Participated in one (or two?) ANZ Challenges.
3. Have regularly run Red Long at club events.
3. Participated in a World Ranking event."
The ANZ Challenge would be promoted in the schools, kids would know see a need to be in the challenge earlier. The policy could be a tool for ONZ.(This may be a new realization for us all).
I have done some investigation... If ONZ was to include these clauses in the policy right now, more than 5 boys could be selected into a team today, they meet ALL these criteria. They are not kids who have just been waltzing through orienteering grades at school without a care for ONZ policies. They are kids that are aiming for JWOC 2017 and beyond that have the World School's event as part of their strategic plan forward.
You could also have criteria:
"Prior to embarking to the Worlds School event members must have:
5. planned a club event
6. mapped a school
7. coached at a local training camp. "
I know the kids would also meet these criteria willingly.
Am I right Katie Cory-Wright could have participated in 5x ANZ-Challenges by February 2014? FIVE! The Aussies will be putting a sign at the border, "Don't send that girl here - send her to Europe instead."
For ONZ to do no selection of any teams this month may be somewhat wise and sensible. But I suggest they need to communicate clearly and honestly why such a decision is made. Otherwise we members will be left perplexed about why the heads of our organisation are not more supportive of their young member's goals.
I am not so keen on junior teams being selected this year but the Senior Boys team is a very obvious one to allow to go. The senior girls are close behind.
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Andel
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Posted: 10 August 2014, 1:25 PM
The appeals going on for other selections (and the Ebola scare) should have no impact on ONZ selecting for the school worlds, and I agree we must support the keen young. orienteers who want to go to Turkey.
ONZ need to realise by not selecting these teams some of these kids may get disillusioned with the sport and go off a do other things. We must encourage them not put them off.
Looking forward we need to be careful when adding additional criteria. Selection by performance will always be the most important criteria and could be done better. It is vital that the selectors look at performance at a number of events school and national. If the selectors do their home work properly they should actually be going to the school nationals with a short list and school nationals should be used as a final confirmation of the teams.
Looking at the criteria Jane has proposed we have to be careful here for instance the suggested criteria, participated in one or two ANZ Challenges can eliminate several very good orienteers, but I do agree that the orienteers who do get selected for these teams should be running red level at club events.
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PaulTS
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Posted: 11 August 2014, 5:59 AM
At the risk of adding a complication, if ONZ will not countenance sending a select team (and I do not understand the logic for starting with the presumption we will not send one), then it might be possible to apply different selection criteria to the teams that a chosen to go. For example, it should be possible to select on the excellence of the submitted team from each college, rather than the college performance over all, which is somewhat a function of numbers.
To illustrate, here's a team I submitted about 3 years ago for senior boys that was rejected: Nick H, Shamus M, Simon T, Cameron G, Stuart E (I think, or maybe one other). I believe this was because the college did not have enough points overall (not enough runners in grades). The first 2 are known, the first 3 were the senior relay team that won North Islands in 2012 by ~15 minutes, numbers 2-4 were the senior relay team that won North Islands in 2013 by 7 minutes.
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theOlyf
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Posted: 12 August 2014, 3:11 AM
In my own opinion, as someone who never had a chance of getting into the school team for world schools, but could have made it to a selected team, I think it would really be worthwhile sending a selected team. It would be a whole new experience for up to 20 runners, many of whom have never competed in Europe. I think that just to send a team made up from one school is almost unfair to those who don’t go to a school with many orienteers.
I also think that the fact that money is coming up as an issue is a little bit odd. If anyone hadn't noticed, it's been the same schools getting selected for quite a long time now. The same students are getting to represent our country and they are managing to financially support themselves more than once with the help of fundraising. Especially those from Napier who are now planning their second trip to Europe. Yes I am aware that a lot of fundraising is being put into this, but if a selected team was well, selected, I am sure a parent would happily organise some fundraising for the students to do on their own. I am sure that I am not the only person who has seen many people at school carrying around Cadbury fundraising chocolates, fundraising for other activities. If all these other athletes (cheer leaders, cross country runners) can do fundraising this way, I'm sure orienteers can too.
My third opinion I would like to share is that there will be many disappointed runners if a selected team is not put forward. Why not send maybe just a senior selected team next year to see how it goes? Then ONZ has another year to decide if it’s worth the while or not! Would it hurt ONZ to try? It doesn’t cost them anything if we can just find a willing parent! ONZ wouldn’t stand to lose anything by sending a selected team to Turkey, but a group of young New Zealand orienteers would stand to gain so much!! The main reason why ONZ should send a selected team would be to gain experience. I can say that after in training in Europe for a very short time, I gained a ridiculously large amount of experience, which I didn’t get after two years of going to Australia!
This message was edited by theOlyf on 12 August 2014, 10:24 AM
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Martin
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Posted: 12 August 2014, 4:10 AM
May I suggest this isn't the right avenue for contacting ONZ? This is a great place to throw ideas around, heckle, get twisted knickers and moan/groan but to make progress or get real answers there are likely to be better channels. The maptalk audience is limited and realistically there's a minimal number of more vocal contributors (many hiding behind pseudonyms) taking part in a slagging match. Slagging off the very people (who are also volunteers) you want to listen doesn't make much sense.
I would see a better pathway as going through your club to the region's council rep. There's also a general manager for other queries.
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lyns
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Posted: 12 August 2014, 6:56 AM
I agree Martin that this isn't the right avenue to make official submissions - but it is a useful place to air and explore views and have them tested - sometimes with vigour! I myself have learnt a lot about other viewpoints on issues I care about and ones I hadn't even heard about it, from this forum, and feel able to make better informed representations as a result.
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A$AP ROCKY
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Posted: 13 August 2014, 2:06 PM
Just let the selected teams go. Andel and Jane H have made very exclusive and valuable comments relating to the matter of ONZ only having to say "yes" Then its all up to the family's and caregivers to fund raise as we all know is the hard work. They haven't made the school team because of the sanctions ONZ has lain down for schools with limited orienteers/Students.
The real question is, what loss would it be to the ONZ if they do send a selected team?
-Http.shawwty
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